tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post664009962205197951..comments2024-02-11T19:28:27.997+11:00Comments on Personal Reflections: Saturday morning musings - gender & the possible rise of Mr Turnbull?Jim Belshawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-5887947072603698832012-10-22T12:36:23.352+11:002012-10-22T12:36:23.352+11:00I agree with you on the small sample point, Winton...I agree with you on the small sample point, Winton. I have a somewhat similar problem. I don't think that these initial results should be too suprising. The overall voting position is similar in trend terms. The leader standings are more interesting, in that they do suggest that the PM did some damage to Mr Abbott, gained something herself. Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-28524057586211671832012-10-22T10:56:14.576+11:002012-10-22T10:56:14.576+11:00Well, Jim, it seems that I didn't judge the pu...Well, Jim, it seems that I didn't judge the public reaction correctly. The overall reaction to the hissy fit seems to have been positive. The 'go girl' mob must be larger than I thought. <br /> <br />Perhaps I have a 'small sample' problem!Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-31823142518262102972012-10-17T20:21:38.642+11:002012-10-17T20:21:38.642+11:00oh dear, kvd. Pass.oh dear, kvd. Pass.Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-55048032281497633582012-10-17T14:47:55.066+11:002012-10-17T14:47:55.066+11:00Kiss of death:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/poli...Kiss of death:<br /><br />http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/our-clintons-why-australia-needs-the-turnbulls-20121017-27qht.html<br /><br />I'm just wondering which bits of the Pres's Kennedy and Clinton she is referring to?<br /><br />kvdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-25751500823708854332012-10-14T22:42:56.441+11:002012-10-14T22:42:56.441+11:00You could be right, Winton. although with this typ...You could be right, Winton. although with this type of issue you need to look over a longer time horizon while people make up their minds. Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-50659832966809409082012-10-14T22:36:17.110+11:002012-10-14T22:36:17.110+11:00If I judge the public reaction correctly, the winn...If I judge the public reaction correctly, the winner from the PM's outburst is more likely to be Kevin Rudd than Malcolm Turnbull.<br />The next polls will be very interesting.Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-55674872399564534252012-10-14T21:48:27.628+11:002012-10-14T21:48:27.628+11:00Well, kvd, either 1 or 3 might fit! I fear that I ...Well, kvd, either 1 or 3 might fit! I fear that I have probably been re-educated too many times now. It seems to be wearing off. Alternatively, I'm just very modern! Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-7249604274253953262012-10-14T21:20:28.324+11:002012-10-14T21:20:28.324+11:00With the constant personal attacks and increasing ...With the constant personal attacks and increasing public disillusionment, is modern politics of risk at wiping itself out completely? <br /><br />Politicians repeated rehearsed phrases, but do you think we could get politicians to start giving us the straight forward, undiluted facts?<br /><br />https://twitter.com/ContemporaryPol<br />https://www.facebook.com/ContemporaryPoliticsForDummies <br />https://contemporarypoliticsfordummies.wordpress.com/ContemporaryPoliticshttps://contemporarypoliticsfordummies.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-3032971495643254052012-10-14T18:15:57.052+11:002012-10-14T18:15:57.052+11:00rampant [ˈræmpənt]
adj
1. unrestrained or violent ...rampant [ˈræmpənt]<br />adj<br />1. unrestrained or violent in behaviour, desire, opinions, etc.<br />2. growing or developing unchecked<br />3. (History / Heraldry) (postpositive) Heraldry (of a beast) standing on the hind legs, the right foreleg raised above the left<br />4. (Fine Arts & Visual Arts / Architecture) (of an arch) having one abutment higher than the other<br />[from Old French ramper to crawl, rear; see ramp]<br /><br />Oh dear, Jim. I think it might be wise to offer a 'slip of the tongue' excuse for that. Then you'd only have to worry about the 'of a certain age' thing.<br /><br />Said in gentle jest, with hopes for your eventual re-education.<br /><br />kvdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-8113094320160987092012-10-14T17:02:44.530+11:002012-10-14T17:02:44.530+11:00Thinking about all this further, the way things ar...Thinking about all this further, the way things are now I guess that you can expect a continued attack on the PM centered on the question of character, in which case Slater & Gordon will certainly get a run. <br /><br />It's really difficult to see how both sides can break out of this cycle. Putting on my ancient and now very moldy political machine hat, attack is the best form of defence. Taking into account the very real anger in the coalition over the whole affair, a continued conscious attack on the PM would seem the best way to go.<br /><br />Looking back over Australian politics, there is one apparent equivalent. Earle Page's attack on Menzies. It wiped out Menzies for the moment, but wipes out Page as well. Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-31693873869493318422012-10-14T16:26:46.251+11:002012-10-14T16:26:46.251+11:00Evan, belatedly responding to your last comment, I...Evan, belatedly responding to your last comment, I agree that AIDS was a turning point. As for patriarchy? That died a while ago. My argument has been that we haven't really adapted to changes that have already taken place. I don't expect all this to have significant longer term effects in terms of fundamental change, beyond accentuation of existing divisions. <br /><br />kvd, by accentuating divisions, the position of both is weakened. On Mr Abbott specifically, my impression is that in the heat of debate he is quite likely to do silly things.<br /><br />On Slater Gordon, I have no idea. My impression is that it's just another thing that will bob along unless new evidence emerges. I saw the most recent reporting and I'm not sure how much that added to our knowledge. <br /><br /> Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-18899588048791987072012-10-14T14:02:04.726+11:002012-10-14T14:02:04.726+11:00Jim re the particular I guess it boils down to how...Jim re the particular I guess it boils down to how much respect you have for Mr Abbot's political skills. <br /><br />For mine, I choose to believe that he is a very canny operator who chooses his words quite carefully. Further, given the amount and extent of the Alan Jones saga/furore, to suggest the particular quite specific phrase 'died of shame' was accidentally invoked as 'a government dying of shame' grants him a level of stupidity I just cannot accept, so on that point we differ.<br /><br />And if 'the whole thing has clearly damaged both' as you suggest - and I tend to agree - then what further significance can you attach to a lowering of 'both sides' in the eyes of the electorate? Ms Gillard will be more likely undone by the festering sore of the Slater Gordon connection than this; and Mr Abbott has an election to lose, not win. <br /><br />All this has done is further polarise already committed bases. <br /><br />kvdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-2231800837411802042012-10-14T13:11:06.558+11:002012-10-14T13:11:06.558+11:00kvd first. I would respond to your first line in d...kvd first. I would respond to your first line in detail, but it really deserves its own post. Still, and very briefly.<br /><br />We are in agreement that the constant repetition by Mr Abbott of certain narrowly defined slogans is pretty meaningless. I was going to say mindless repletion, but its conscious, not mindless. I agree about the absence of the positives. Mr Abbott focuses on why we should vote against the ALP, not why we should vote for him.<br /><br />I agree that we should get our language right. I agree with your cloudiness point. I do not agree in this case that Mr Abbott consciously chose his language. I think that he just slipped up. To think otherwise, would be to give him a level of political stupidity not supported by evidence.<br /><br />I do not agree with you re the political significance. The whole thing has clearly damaged both. Just how that plays out has still to be seen. It's a matter of judgement whose validity can only be seen in time. <br /><br />My comment about women of a certain age is an opinion based on my perception but is arguable, refutable, on the facts. Essentially, and as I have argued before, some of the most rampant feminists are those born in the ten years from the late 1950s to the late 1960s. There are particular reasons for this, but in any event my assertion is subject to factual check. <br /><br />Finally, turning to Mr Turnbull I am not a Turnbull supporter. I take the force in your comment. But the dynamics do suggest that he might well become opposition leader simply through the force of circumstances. <br /><br /> Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-45151047201197494482012-10-14T12:30:45.841+11:002012-10-14T12:30:45.841+11:00"a lot of the atmospherics in all this seem t..."a lot of the atmospherics in all this seem to come from women of a certain age plus those who dislike Mr Abbott"<br /><br />Jim I don't really agree with that assessment, but I hope you don't suffer from an attack of the trolls because of it.<br /><br />I think I've made it quite plain that I'm a right of centre sort of person, and I neither like nor dislike Mr Abbott. I watched his comments, and Ms gillard's response, and as far as I'm concerned he deliberately chose his language, and was handed his head on a plate quite justifiably.<br /><br />But to 'see it as part of a bigger picture' or of any ongoing political significance is to grant the incident a significance I don't think is warranted.<br /><br />What I think (or should that be hope) is that all most of us want are serious people seriously addressing the quite serious issues this country faces - and I don't think either party offers much in the way of ideas or solutions at the moment.<br /><br />And I also think that it would help a bit (along with your own desire for more edifying debate) if we could also get our basic language right: we don't actually have a 'carbon tax' and Ms Gillard made no bones about the fact before the last election that there would be a price on carbon. To call her a 'liar' is to deny both those uncontested facts; to suggest that the coalition has easy answers to those issues which trouble us all is not based upon anything they've yet announced.<br /><br />People bring their own cloudy lenses to these discussions - so much so that it is very difficult to cut through the tribalism to see what if anything concrete is being proposed, and how that might fit within all the other equally important issues any government will face in the next few years.<br /><br />The thing which makes me boil about Mr Abbott at the moment is the ceaseless, nonsensical repetition of meaningless slogans. "Stop the boats", "No great big new taxes" etc. <br /><br />Without valid alternative policy positions to back them up he just comes over as someone who has made the assessment that the electorate at large is comprised of fools and morons - and I find that quite insulting. And if you think that the foregoing is some sort of defence of Ms Gillard then I've expressed myself very badly.<br /><br />One final thing (so I don't clog up your blog endlessly) I cannot see any hope for a Malcolm Turnbull resurgence; at the very least government is about uneasy consensus of competing interests, and his earlier attempt found him seriously lacking in any recognition of that, and I see no change in him since then.<br /><br />kvdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-78442718759389478222012-10-14T11:55:14.126+11:002012-10-14T11:55:14.126+11:00Yes I do think the two parties have converged to a...Yes I do think the two parties have converged to a centrist, centre-right place. There isn't a lot of differences I can see.<br /><br />I think you are right about where the noise is coming from.<br /><br />For me the intensity means it must speak to these people's experience. <br /><br />My hope is that we will see, as men lose the positions or privelege, a movement of men against patriarchy. The situation in my life time has changed remarkably (especially re gays - the big change point I think was AIDS - just my impression).<br /><br />I hope it leads to some alliances and action - there is so much energy that could be constructively channelled.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355215688351759230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-13047422519108573462012-10-14T11:11:31.311+11:002012-10-14T11:11:31.311+11:00One of the difficulties, I think, Evan is that if ...One of the difficulties, I think, Evan is that if you look at the policies of the two parties through an equality frame independent of gender there is not a lot of difference between the two! <br /><br />Now I wouldn't say that you have fallen of the twig in cultural matters. I am hardly left, yet we can still discourse! <br /><br />Now at the risk on inciting a troll attack, a lot of the atmospherics in all this seem to come from women of a certain age plus those who dislike Mr Abbott. I accept that's a gross generalization.I accept, too, that Mr Abbott's wording over time really has pissed off women including younger women like daughter C. But the intensity is still remarkable. <br /><br />I wouldn't have thought of the Americas Cup analogy. But if we extend that analogy,then the practical impact of the whole affair is likely to be zero.I think that it's a little more than that. <br /> Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-54105913016231168162012-10-14T10:18:00.669+11:002012-10-14T10:18:00.669+11:00to get commentsto get commentsEvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355215688351759230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-40870225638509472262012-10-14T10:17:36.880+11:002012-10-14T10:17:36.880+11:00The big muddying of the waters I think was making ...The big muddying of the waters I think was making single mothers poorer.<br /><br />The surprising thing about the reaction to Julia's skewering of Tony for me was the vehemance of it.<br /><br />This may be because I socialise mostly with those like me. We tend to the left (some would think so much so as to have fallen off the twig) in cultural matters.<br /><br />Although much of the cheering seemed to come as much from the middle class - gathered around their computers cheering in the office of a women's blog for instance.<br /><br />I think this kind of intensity means something (the nearest event I have is Aus winning the Americas Cup).Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355215688351759230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-60256195038037331272012-10-14T07:33:59.930+11:002012-10-14T07:33:59.930+11:00You may be right, anon, if I interpret you correct...You may be right, anon, if I interpret you correctly. The last sentence of Rod's comment is pertinent here.<br /><br />It's interesting, Rod, that some of the ALP people like Penny Wong are trying to distance not from the PM, but from the idea of misogyny wars. That union function muddied the waters further. Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-79019502432533039282012-10-13T22:36:44.918+11:002012-10-13T22:36:44.918+11:00I think your comment about falling on each others ...I think your comment about falling on each others swords is an excellent description. As far as I can tell this whole affair has done them both incredible damage while further entrenching the absolute views of the elite bodyguards of both camps. I think for both parties to come out of this without further damage they both need a rebellion from within. For the Liberals though, Turnbull would be an interesting selection since in my view it would be like trying to make the Liberal Party more like Labor!Rodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962789743908134314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-52977206261290124802012-10-13T10:38:53.573+11:002012-10-13T10:38:53.573+11:00Removing Abbott means the carbon tax will stay and...Removing Abbott means the carbon tax will stay and a lot of coalition votes will look right again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com