tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post6437070071382014031..comments2024-02-11T19:28:27.997+11:00Comments on Personal Reflections: A note on the idea of progressJim Belshawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-20388228634645635932012-04-21T14:16:03.000+10:002012-04-21T14:16:03.000+10:00Jim:
It seems to me that progress doesn't have...Jim:<br />It seems to me that progress doesn't have to be to a point. We can progress beyond a point. It would be better to say that progress is always relative to some point.<br /><br />The other point I should mention is that at least some Asians disagree that social progress is a peculiarly western idea. A Buddhist writer <a href="http://www.lakehouse.lk/mihintalava/sasana13.htm" rel="nofollow">on this site</a> says Max Weber was mistaken on that point.Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-16454418164688386192012-04-20T19:41:11.034+10:002012-04-20T19:41:11.034+10:00Thinking further, Winton, I should do a short post...Thinking further, Winton, I should do a short post on the concept of the future.Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-62679872157430056952012-04-20T19:36:35.717+10:002012-04-20T19:36:35.717+10:00Progress means movement towards a point, civilisat...Progress means movement towards a point, civilisation is something we are working towards. The idea of the earthly as compared to heavenly future.Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-14383149131393227582012-04-20T18:41:54.522+10:002012-04-20T18:41:54.522+10:00"the Western idea of both civilisation and pr..."the Western idea of both civilisation and progress have the future built in"<br /><br />Jim, please, what do you mean by "have the future built in"? A polite query.<br /><br />kvdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-87898082621578429802012-04-20T18:33:38.991+10:002012-04-20T18:33:38.991+10:00Winton, I had largely forgotten Spencer and had to...Winton, I had largely forgotten Spencer and had to look him up. If you look at his views, you can see why Bury would regard him as an optimist. Spencer did believe, for example, that the state would wither as society evolved.Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-38827067544739641942012-04-20T18:03:06.387+10:002012-04-20T18:03:06.387+10:00I thought I had read Bury's book. But I missed...I thought I had read Bury's book. But I missed the dedication. Bury regarded Herbert Spencer (the social Darwinism guy)as an optimist!<br /><br />I think Bury was getting a bit carried away by his optimism when he wrote: 'civilization has moved, is moving and will move in a desirable direction'.Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-18242287190464685612012-04-20T18:02:08.580+10:002012-04-20T18:02:08.580+10:00Ramana, I spoke of the need for definition in the ...Ramana, I spoke of the need for definition in the post. I also agree that different parts of the world, more precisely different cultures, may have different definitions.<br /><br />That said, I would have thought that the idea of "progress' however defined was a very Western concept. By contrast, the idea of "civilisation" seems much more wide spread and much more culture specific. <br /><br />In Australia, many of the European settlers saw themselves as bringing civilisation to the Aborigines. In China, court officials who saw their culture as civilsation struggled to deal with the European barbarians. I suspect that there was something similar in India. <br /><br />I think that the linking of the ideas of progress and civilisation as in Whitehead is very western. <br /><br />kvd, change is not an inevitable factor of civilisation - cf my Chinese example above. I think that one useful distinction is civilisation as is as compared to civilsation as an aspiration. If you represent civilisation, why change?<br /><br />Thinking about this, the Western idea of both civilisation and progress have the future built in.Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-7361771006714315382012-04-20T17:05:57.867+10:002012-04-20T17:05:57.867+10:00Very much agree with Ramana!
kvdVery much agree with Ramana!<br /><br />kvdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-6230744611224791992012-04-20T16:52:37.674+10:002012-04-20T16:52:37.674+10:00Surely, words like civilisation and progress thems...Surely, words like civilisation and progress themselves need acceptable definitions before we can arrive at a consensus?<br /><br />These two words have gained a lot of notoriety because of the heavy slant towards the Western idea of them. That other parts of the world could have different ideas need to be recognised and accommodated.Rummuserhttp://www.rummuser.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-53941331329615421292012-04-20T16:24:47.701+10:002012-04-20T16:24:47.701+10:00"I think that requires a degree of optimism&q..."I think that requires a degree of optimism"<br /><br />And also a level of dissatisfaction with what 'is'? Or is Change an automatic, assumed to be inevitable, factor of Civilisation?<br /><br />kvd<br /><br />ps I vey much liked Winston's thoughts (Thoughts?) but disagree with his irrit on Capitalisation; I've always taken that as referential to preceding Definitions.<br /><br />- said with HumorAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com