tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post8454701876751552987..comments2024-02-11T19:28:27.997+11:00Comments on Personal Reflections: Train reading - reflections on Lyon's Balcony over JerusalemJim Belshawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-18077462160720368752020-07-01T22:08:15.186+10:002020-07-01T22:08:15.186+10:00Haaretz twisted language, especially on racism: sl...Haaretz twisted language, especially on racism: slaps it on cultural divisions or on safety but not on Arab Muslim racist attacks<br /><br /><br />The "competetive" tantrum trend among hard Israeli left to utter the "racisn" terminology has been for some time.<br /><br /><br />They are ever so loud on isolated cases of violent attacks against Arabs which we all condemn, of course.<br /><br /><br />Yet, they are silent on every weekly attacks by racist Arabs targeting Jewish civilians (at times travelling for miles far away from own Arab town...). Of course it's Arab Muslim terrorism but it's also anti-Jewish ethnic racism and religious bigotry. <br /><br /><br />Yet, will term any Israeli security measure as "racist." As if it's "not" saving lives, what it is really about.<br /><br /><br />Will minimize Arab Islamic Palestinian use of its own population as human shields (at least since 1980 by Arafat), and Israeli attempts to evacuate before an anti terror operation. <br /><br />Will maximize exaggerate any claim of abuse.<br /><br /><br />Incidentally, with all the heavily funded anti Israel groups in Israel. why isn't there any peace movement on the Arab Palestinian side, Hamas' Gaza or Fatah's Ramallah? <br /><br /><br />If one specific community wants to keep its unique education, they immediately cry "racism".<br /><br /><br />They are silent on every Israeli court case that favors Arab vs Jew. But ever so loud on any partial-discriminatory incident. Despite the fact, it is rather ultra-orthodox who feel most all out discriminated against, mainly prompted by anti Religious hatred campaign by hard left like Haaretz.<br /><br /><br />These supposed "peaceninks", these same hypocrites, incite against, demonize Haredi ultra Orthodox conscientious objectors who refuse to serve in IDF draft in Israeli army.<br /><br /><br />Haaretz and the like, are not just biased. But hate mongers.An eye openerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06099302226423720627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-1066785281980030912018-02-03T10:45:12.638+11:002018-02-03T10:45:12.638+11:00I guess that prior to 1948, DG, it was the "J...I guess that prior to 1948, DG, it was the "Jewish" problem! Starting from the premise in your last sentence, returning the West bank to Jordanian control is an option. But which parts of the West Bank and would Jordan accept them? If not, how do you think Israel should/could manage the changing demography within Israel and the territory it controls? Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-42374950944814583122018-01-24T21:13:20.949+11:002018-01-24T21:13:20.949+11:00The "Palestinian" problem only emerged a...The "Palestinian" problem only emerged after the 1948 war; it became more acute after 1967 and more especially after 1973. So let Jordan have the west bank (the "Jordan is Palestine" solution). Israel would be mad to relinquish occupation of the west bank to a Palestinian regime; look what happened in Southern Lebanon and Gaza. Fatah wouldn't stand a chance against the intimidation of Hamas.<br /><br />DGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-36760822099833577722018-01-14T10:34:34.755+11:002018-01-14T10:34:34.755+11:00Sorry for the delay in responding, kvd. I had to t...Sorry for the delay in responding, kvd. I had to think about what you wrote. <br /><br />I think that the description of the problem remains central, including recognition of the various ways actors define the 'problem". Not all problems are necessarily solvable. With every problem, there is also the question of whose problem is it? <br /><br />Take the Israel/Palestine problem. It used to be mainly called the Arab/Israeli problem, itself a perceptual shift. In very simple terms, the problem is to find a way for two groups to live together in harmony in the same geographic space when both groups define problem and solution in different ways between and within each group.<br /><br />The primary problem owners are the Israelis and Palestinians.It may be that the problem is not soluble. One outcome might be that Israel as dominant power imposes ethnic cleansing. A second more likely outcome is what has been called the Bantustan solution. Both would create new problems. A still more likely outcome is that exhaustion in the two communities will result in some form of moving compromise. <br /><br />Is the Israeli/Palestine problem an Australian problem? Clearly, the Australian Government faces a political issue because portions of the Australian community have made the Israeli/Palestine question there problem in a very partisan way. Then the Australian Government faces diplomatic issues because of the importance of the problem to the US, the perceived interconnection between the problem and other problems such as the war on terror and our previous attempts to balance support for Israel's right to exist and the injustices imposed on the Palestinians.<br /><br />But does all this make the Israeli/Palestine problem an Australian problem? I would argue no, that Australia is not a party and has no problem ownership. Our problem is to decide how to respond to the issues raised recognsing that it, the main problem, is not our problem. So while we recognise Israel's right to exist and should respond sensibly to injustices, we should respond in a low key way recognising that it the original problem is not an Australian problem. In the end, the main problem owners have to work it out. Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-15624732339000059162018-01-12T13:00:36.936+11:002018-01-12T13:00:36.936+11:00Accepting (and I do) Jim's musing on irrationa...Accepting (and I do) Jim's musing on irrationalities, the problem seems to me to be the different starting points and ensuing paths of the irrational actions. <br /><br />I mean, if everyone hated Vegemite, but acted out in different ways, then you might have a workable basis from which to provide 'a solution'. (in extremis, cease producing the product)<br /><br />That is not the case here, or in any conflict afaics: the actors start from different positions, proceed with different motives, and with different preferred outcomes, different supporters/sponsors (for each of which, go round the logic loop), plus different religious views - all held (as Jim states) possibly quite 'logically'.<br /><br />There is presently no player (in fact, there never has been) willing to undertake (was it?) Alexander's action, and cut the Gordian knot - because any outcome imposed does not perfectly suit that player's own position. Rinse and repeat.<br /><br />Describing a problem, however well, is far removed from 'solving' it.<br /><br />kvd<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-75162176650348226412018-01-12T10:06:16.581+11:002018-01-12T10:06:16.581+11:00I do seem to have several different views of balan...I do seem to have several different views of balance mixed together. In my comment in red, balance related especially to a demographic tipping point that would have certain consequences. My response to marcellous referred to a different type of balance. So we have at least three types of balance: balance between countervailing weights; balance as in fair, showing both sides; and balance as in objective.<br /><br />kvd, your comment on irrationality interested me. And, no, I am not going to respond with a question!<br /><br />The word irrational is another of those slippery ones, at least to me. I know what you mean, and broadly I agree with you. However, I have found that actions that seem to be irrational are perfectly rational as in logical once you know the starting point. That starting point may or may not be rational, but once it is accepted then the logic flows. So we start from beliefs or perspectives that may or may not be rational; most beliefs by their nature have an apparent degree of irrationality. Then we have the consequent actions that may or may not be rational given the starting point. <br /><br /> <br /><br /> Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-76529333551756693142018-01-11T18:46:10.095+11:002018-01-11T18:46:10.095+11:00The only bit you need to read is Jim's red par...The only bit you need to read is Jim's red paragraph - because there you see Jim's thought process move from 'balance' as a term for "fair description of both views" to 'balance' as in "balance of raw, controlling, power".<br /><br />Rational beings will continue to debate this ongoing dilemma - but the outcomes, whatever they may be, will be enacted by what are, basically, irrational actors. And I just find it strange that this irrationality is never thought to be of any great significance.<br /><br />kvd<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-61984761851914468902018-01-11T18:33:05.554+11:002018-01-11T18:33:05.554+11:00Hi marcellous. My comment on balance relates to th...Hi marcellous. My comment on balance relates to the feeds I see. On the left, you have a pro-Palestinian feed that just sees Israeli oppression. On the right, you have concerns about Muslim fundamentalism, who see Israel as a defender of Western civilisation. I accept that this is a simplification. If you want to understand what it happening, what might happen you have to stand back. That makes balance important. <br /><br />Australia is an outlier in many ways. I'm nor absolutely sure how this affects public discourse. Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-31688567270832794062018-01-11T18:21:22.797+11:002018-01-11T18:21:22.797+11:00By "outrider" I meant "outlier.&quo...By "outrider" I meant "outlier."marcelloushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06209648151753428540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-67751959440408095022018-01-11T18:20:01.780+11:002018-01-11T18:20:01.780+11:00Isn't "balance" a bit of a chimera?
...Isn't "balance" a bit of a chimera?<br /><br />If you mean some kind of "middle point" that would be hard to approach from Australia as Australia is such an international outrider on the subject and this permeates all public discourse so deeply. marcelloushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06209648151753428540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-29336675232772025672018-01-09T00:49:30.996+11:002018-01-09T00:49:30.996+11:00Evening, kvd. Thought the first comment was from y...Evening, kvd. Thought the first comment was from you! <br /><br />I asked the question in the way that I did because of a feeling that in the shifting sands of Middle East politics the Israeli-Palestine issue had become a second-order one, at least for the present. <br /><br />On the book, the book itself is not really important as a book. My focus was on the patterns of behaviour and what they might mean in the longer term in the absence of change. Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-74001641041966710272018-01-08T18:32:26.976+11:002018-01-08T18:32:26.976+11:00Apologies Jim - kvd - me, myself - owns that post....Apologies Jim - kvd - me, myself - owns that post. Was actually more irritated by something short and sour that Neil posted, made even more-so when my comments disappeared into the ether, because I hadn't first logged into Wordpress :)<br /><br />But back to your question: "What do you see as the trans-national forces?"<br /><br />Now, I am more than used to your answering a statement with a question, but I think in this case, the pawns are merely that, and I'm surprised you wouldn't at least acknowledge the larger powers in active play? You can name your own, and I mine, but they shift and change every day, so there is not much point. <br /><br />Just, let's please not kid ourselves that this is a simple Israeli-Palestinian minor confrontation with no wider affects.<br /><br />And no matter how good/bad uplifting/terrifying one man's (and family's) experience is recorded, the greater consideration is how the political "weight" will shift should eventually one side or the other gain supremacy.<br /><br />IOW - it suits all of us, this permanent state of impermanence. And his experience, in the wider realm, matters little - however charmingly written.<br /><br />kvdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-65692473370612007132018-01-08T17:41:08.509+11:002018-01-08T17:41:08.509+11:00Tart, anon, tart! Can I just pick up your first se...Tart, anon, tart! Can I just pick up your first sentence? What do you see as the trans-national forces?<br />Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24338064.post-48547641875303428622018-01-08T15:09:08.240+11:002018-01-08T15:09:08.240+11:00The Israel-Palestine issue is a by-product of grea...The Israel-Palestine issue is a by-product of greater trans-national forces, using it (the conflict) to play out their greater issues. <br /><br />If anybody was really serious about 'solving' the issues of two fairly insignificant populations they'd maybe relocate the entire UN infrastructure to Jerusalem, and put either the Swiss Guards or the Japanese equivalent in charge of on-the-ground security. <br /><br />Or maybe the Chinese, who have bigger fish to fry, so would probably be more realistic in their approach: step back, or stop breathing.<br /><br />But that won't happen, and we will continue to angst about it all, and all the while continue the pretense that it is an earth shattering, irresolvable, problem - of more than insignificant importance.<br /><br />And the arms dealers and the other offal will feed off the carcass of our failed good intentions. But hey! - we "meant well" - and doesn't it feel good to worry about it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com